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Podcasts: Narrative Control - Episode 27 - Stealing Monsters from 4E

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  1. Administrator
     

    This week on Narrative Control Paul Strack, Mike Parker and I talk about monsters in 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons and what we’ve learned from the designers of the game.

    Hosts: Sean Nittner

    Guest Hosts: Michael Parker and Paul Strack

    Length: 27:04

    Show Notes:

    [00:30] Intro to the show.  A sit down with Paul Strack and Mike Parker to talk about how 4E got monsters right.
    [00:49] A RPG Podcast Survey:  http://www.spookyouthouse.com/survey
    [01:14] Intro to the guys… some portion of Good Omens (http://www.goodomensgames.com)
    [01:35] Planning the next Good Omens Convention – July 18th.  http://www.goodomensgames.com/index.php/con/
    [02:13] 4th Edition does Minions really well.  Seen in other games: Feng Shui, 7th Sea but usually they never pose a threat.
    [03:15] Not the way mooks are depicted in fiction, which is to heighten the tension of the story.
    [03:50] Mike’s use of Minions to shake up a fight and change expectations.
    [04:30] The difference is that in other games, everything about a minion is scaled down so not only are they easy to take out, but they also don’t pose a threat.   4th Edition breaks that, lowering their damage and hit points but keeping their defenses and attacks on par with the players.
    [05:33] Usually they have some powers up their sleeve as well.
    [06:00] Minions can really help the “big bad” giving him advantages… correction though that the 4th edition folks will catch, grab immobilizes and doesn’t grant combat advantage, but you get the point.
    [06:41] Comparing to more recent incarnations of minions.  A Spirit of the Century minion. 
    [08:02] Mike’s adaptation of Minion in his Hunter game.
    [08:48] Can this scale up with supernatural powers?  How do minions fit into the horror genre?
    [10:17] How to put it in other games?  One hit kills but they have teeth.
    [10:39] What about groups of minions? Can they be treated as a unit and still be a threat.
    [11:44] Making minions complimentary to the Big Bad’s plans.
    [12:27] Prevents the “everyone clobber one guy” phenomenon.
    [13:35] The Solo monster.  The idea that you would treat a single big boss differently
    [14:26] In most games the big bad is scaled up in all aspects making him more dangerous but also more frustrating to fight.
    [15:47] What makes solo bosses work in Dungeons and Dragons and how to we port that into another game?
    [16:10] They formalize how they break the rules.  If you are big you get extra tricks.
    [16:54] How about in a very narrative game? Take PTA for example.   Give the big bad a bigger buffer that you would usually have.
    [18:10] The Spirit of the Century chase mechanics.  A very back and forth system that rolls several conflicts into one.
    [18:55] Giving the main villain some form of plot immunity.
    [19:42] What about a stake setting game? Should we negotiate stakes to protect antagonists?
    [21:49] Polaris and the formalized player negotiation, how to scale the escalation of consequences.
    [22:40] We get the same things for Solo bosses as we do for minions.  Scale them up on in certain places.
    [23:30] Monsters are treated statistically different.   In other games we see this break down as powerful villains become incredibly complex to create and to play.
    [25:00] Save a lot of time for both the GM and the players
    [25:46] The rule of three.   The bag guy needs 3-4 abilities because that is all the time he’s going to live.
    [26:00] This is a very gamist attitude.  If you can give up on simulation it will be rewarding.

     

    Direct Download: NC_Episode_027.mp3

  2. Member
    • CommentAuthorMrTim
    • CommentTimeApr 23rd 2009
     
    My friend read "Where the Deep Ones Are" with her three-year-old niece. I think her niece is going to either grow up to be a huge geek or have some serious nightmares. Maybe both.
  3. Administrator
     
    My kids are 6 and 3 and the love "Where the Deep Ones Are." They also love Dora the Explorer. So I wouldn't worry to much about it.
  4. Member
    • CommentAuthorJustinEvans
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2009 edited
     
    You should write a cross-over story: "Dora Explores Where the Deep Ones Are"
  5. Member
     
    Boots to the...Head?
  6. Member
     
    Re: Minion rules. Savage Worlds has been getting it right since 2003. In fact many Savages have commented on how some 4e rules are similar to Savage Worlds. There is some evidence that some developers were playing Savage Worlds while designing 4e.
  7.  
    Member
     
    I agree with Mountzionryan, though I think that Minions in Savage Worlds are more there to make it feel more puply, though in my opinion very good game has some elements of pulp in it. High Adventure! In some form or another.
  8. Administrator
     
    Posted By: mountzionryanRe: Minion rules. Savage Worlds has been getting it right since 2003. In fact many Savages have commented on how some 4e rules are similar to Savage Worlds. There is some evidence that some developers were playing Savage Worlds while designing 4e.

    Cool. I've only seen the Savage Worlds system in Deadlands: Reloaded in a few con games but don’t' recall running into minions. I did really enjoy the elegance of the system otherwise though so I'm not surprised to hear that they have good minion rules. I'll defiantly check it out. Thanks Mountzionryan.
  9. Member
    • CommentAuthorLunatyk
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2009
     
    Those minion rules reminded me of Exalted's extra rules...
  10. Administrator
     
    I think Exalted took a good shot at it with Extras, but my beef is that a) extras have too many stats and b) like many minions they scale down too evenly.

    I was playing a very hard to hit martial artist next to a brick of a dawn cast and the extras we faced just a) couldn't hit me and b) couldn't hurt him. Our athletics charms and battle armor made it easy to circumvent extras and go right to the big bad. I do like how damage is handled against extras but there is still a lot of math involved (three health levels, each one takes up to three damage to fill but first you must factor soak, etc). Scaling down their durability and scaling up their threat could really help to speed up the game (as Exalted combat tends to take quite a while).

    Because Exalted allows for multiple actions, variable speed and all that jazz, I can see wanting extras that don't drop like dominos (otherwise every Solar in exalted acts like a controller on minions) so you don't need dozens of them to pose a challenge. I propose every extra falls into one category easy, moderate and challenging. Easy take one hit and have attack dice equal to the PC's defenses (granting a 50% chance of hitting). Moderate take two hits (still pretty easy for a Solar to do but can't tear through hordes of them) and have 150% of the PCs defense in attack dice (making hitting the solar likely but not forgone). Challenging would be just like Moderate but either have more attack dice, or some extra "oomph" to make them more of a threat or harder to catch. All clearly illustrated in my handy diagram :)

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