Welcome to episode 59. Fattig and I are talking about Player versus Player awesomeness in games. We’ve got fears, trepidations and we talk about how we’ve overcome then and the amazing stories we’ve seen come out of doing so.
Hosts: Sean Nittner and Eric Fattig
Length: 54:58 (yep, sorry another long one, but it is worth it)
Show Notes
[00:22] I stab your character in the back… Well I stab YOU in the face!
[01:17] Intro to the show: Player vs. Player
[01:26] Player vs. Player baggage. Lots of bad experiences.
[04:11] But… pvp can make for the most awesome experiences in the game.
Examples of great PVP.
[05:06] Example the one: L5R – Al-Saleen and Tso Lou discuss balancing love on the edge of a blade.
[09:02] Example the two: L5R – Rei and Tso Lou opposite sides of empire building.
Why player versus player is awesome.
[14:26] Knowing that players are your antagonists raises the stakes and the tension at the table. Players are more alert and attentive throughout.
[15:59] Players can do more when they have meaningful interactions between the other PCs because they aren’t limited to the GMs bandwidth.
[17:06] PVP gives the GM a chance to step back from center stage and manage the game. Gives the GM a chance to see the bigger picture.
[19:03] It is more fun for the GM if he or she doesn’t have to be the only source of antagonism.
[19:24] Players make the BEST antagonists! NPCs take a lot of work to portray and players can easily dismiss them.
[24:00] How do we do the good and not the bad
[25:50] Ensure there is never a one-sidededness between PCs, they must always have a chance and always have something to lose.
[26:50] Creating constraints. Players need a sandbox that will demonstrate what are appropriate actions and consequences.
[29:35] Plenty of external threats to make the player conflicts precious and dangerous.
[30:44] Use a system where players can bounce back from defeat. Apocalypse World: Player vs. Player moves. Burning Wheel: Explicit stake settings that are negotiated. Smallville stress just ups the ante and makes the conflicts more intense. Dogs in the Vineyard relationships can move from problematic (d4) to beneficial (d6+) as the result of fallout.
[38:38] Player versus player conflict should not be a zero-sum game. We can give and take different things that we value differently.
[43:29] Examples of games that bring player versus player action.
[43:43] The Gift
[46:54] Duneville
[50:15] So much awesome that can come out of player conflict. The game doesn’t need to be about PVP, just make a safe space for it to happen and watch the magic.
[51:30] News of the <blank>!
[52:17] Dundracon coming up! – You can be a god in my game!
[52:50] Good Omens 10 year anniversary
[53:01] GM Seminar in March at EndGame.
[53:33] EndGame Minicon April 9th – 5th anniversary of Minicons
Direct Download: NC_Episode_059.mp3
Sean, your comments and report on Duneville made me look again at Smallville, which I had dismissed out of hand when I first saw it had been published. I've looked at Leverage and the Serenity RPG and the Cortex just seemed like a system that didn't add anything to the repetoir of game mechanics available, just another excuse to use funny dice.
But I like having rules for non-combat conflicts, and I have not seen very many games that address it at all, and none well.
Over the last year I've been exploring indi games and realizing there's no one game that will satisfy me on all fronts, and so I've been cannibalizing parts I like on a case by case basis.
Your 'cast made me take a serious look at Smallville, (and chase down three more reviews and two more podcast interviews with Josh Roby) and I have to say the game mechanic has much more appeal to me. Values Relationships and the Pathing stuff is a notable departure from what I've seen, and I like the universality of the mechanics.
But I still don't like the funny dice.
Your work shows what it looks like to move the rules system away from Smallville (which I've also not watched) but I'd like to explore how to move away from the Cortex system, and just keep the parts I do like. I'm contemplating adding these to a d20 game I'm running on line, and perhaps a game version of League of Extraordinary Gentleman as well.
I eagerly await each podcast, and wish I was at DunDraCon to say so in person.
Hey coderodent,
Very happy that listening to the show encouraged you take another look at Smallville. I still remember listening to Have Games Will Travel and hearing about this "Dogs in the Vineyard" thing and then checking it out. If I can reproduce the same effect on Narrative Control, I am extremely honored.
To the specifics at hand, I agree that Smallville is definitely a game to hack all to pieces. The episode creation, pathways system, and as you mentioned the relationship mechanic are all sweet ideas that with a little work can be ported into other games.
As for the dice, they neither awed nor frustrated me. The dice are definitely not the "wow" of the system like they are in Don't Rest Your Head, but I was happy to use them as is. I'm sure you could to d20 using modifiers (so d4 = d20, d6 = d20+5, d8 = d20+10, etc). You wouldn't get the same range. d20+5 can't generate a 1, but you could make it work.
Too bad you won't be at DDC. If you are local, do you attend any of the EndGame MiniCons? Or Kubla? I know you're going to be a Big Bad Con, right? (*wink*)
If you're not local, I'll be at Gen Con this year. Yeah baby, Gen Con 2011 will rock the house!
Coderodent,
Another though. Check out Jenn's Jennisode on Smallville: http://www.jennisodes.com/podcasts/smallville-game-group/
I listened to Jenn and the RPG Haven http://www.therpghaven.com/podcast/?p=266 and the longer and greatly detailed interview http://gamershavenpodcast.com/2010/07/04/gamers-haven-special-edition-an-interview-with-josh-roby/
Building the game in d20 would work if the interaction between Stress and Growth and the Contests are less important. I think I may have to try the game unmodified first to see what pieces are tightly coupled and what can be shaken loose.
I moved from the Bay area to Florida, so I went from a game con mecca to a con-desert. I maintained a gaming connection to California via RPOL.net . Has Narrative Control had online RP as a topic?
We haven't, but since I just started playing both PTA and Remember Tomorrow over Skype one might come up :)
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